Herd Dynamics in Action
Feb 11th, 2010 by Carolyn Resnick Method
Hi. By taking the time to learn the Waterhole Rituals and their origins, you will be able to observe horse interactions with a much deeper understanding and insight. What previously seemed like unruly or strange behavior will suddenly start to make perfect sense as you watch the rituals unfolding before your eyes. Of course, this doesn’t just happen one time, it’s a continuous ongoing process and horses are always testing the limits around them.
Today I would like to share a letter with you from one of my regular blog readers, who witnessed herd dynamics and rituals at work when she introduced her new horse to her herd. It’s wonderful that she was able to witness it and take pictures for us. Thank you.
If any of you know that you have a new introduction coming up, I encourage you to make some time to watch the process and see if you can pick out what’s happening and how it mixes up the pecking order. If you can take some video of it all, I would love to see it and I’m sure we would all learn from it immensely, so I look forward to hearing of your experiences.
Till next week, keep watching, in my opinion, the best reality TV show in town – herd dynamics in action!
Carolyn
Hey Carolyn
I’m on a new computer, so hoping this is you email address. I read in Naked Liberty how a new horse to the herd must allow all the members of the herd to follow him or her. It’s leading from behind, a dominate thing, Once the new horse allows this, he hopefully is welcomed and then he can begin his climb up the ladder of the herd.
I introduced my new horse, Gunner to the herd and watched as it all unfolded. Gunner allowed everyone to follow, and then began negotiating with Hawk, who is bottom of the herd.
It was amazing, and wonderful, and I understood everything that happened because of you. I took pictures! Hope you enjoy!
Thanks for all your advice
Deborah Johnson
No related posts.
Hello,
Something happened today that made me think about this blog and also the one about greeting like a lead mare, I like to share.
At my stable a new horse arrived yesterday. She has been housed in a stall in a row of 4, in which my horse has a stall also (2 stalls are between them).
Today the new horse was very stressed, she was weaving the whole time. I stood beside her for a while, and she said hello for a moment, but then started weaving again. I left her to pay attention to my horse.
When I took my mare out of her stable to take her to the paddock, we passed the new mare. My horse went to say hello. She is a lead mare, and a dominant one, not the passive, sweet kind. She placed herself close in front of the new mare, in a 90 degrees angle to her body. When she turned her head to the side to touch noses, the new mare squiked. My horse kept very calm, just turned her head away. After a short while, she turned her head again in the direction of the new horses face. Again a squik, again turning away of the head. This happened a couple of times. She just stood there for quit a while, her head straight ahead. The new mare started to smell and touch her neck and her back. My horse let her for some time, her body didn’t move an inch. Than she turned her head again very cautiously, and they touched noses without any squiking. After that, my horse turned her body and began to play with the rope which was hanging beside the stall door.
The new horse was much calmer after this.
It was fascinating to watch. It was obvious that there was such a lot of subtle communication going on. My always rather aggressive mare ouzed calmness. This time she did behave like a passive sweet lead mare. It’s only my interpretation of course, but it seemed like she was reassuring the new horse on the block by just by being there, very grounded, beside her.
She keeps surprising me…
Best wishes
A failed leader?
Carolyn I think I’ve made some blunders with my leadership status.
Backtrack to August: I would tie Capricho outside the house during rides, and every time he saw me step out the door he whinnied loudly to me. He would leave his food to say good-bye.
Three things happened: 1) the horrible accident, but we were OK; 2) ten days later the vet and his assistant came to give him antibiotic shots while my hand was too mangled to even halter him – and before I knew what was going on, they had put a twitch on his nose, fighting him to do a simple injection – and that was when I noticed he really cooled off towards me, for I also could not be in a barnyard for about four weeks until my wounds closed; and 3) last week I put Big Capricho in with little Capricho overnight. At first they played together despite the larger horse having maybe a 350 pound advantage – Little Boy reared, chased, sneak-attacked and all. But by morning it was obvious the bigger horse had totally dominated him. I quickly removed the bigger horse, but the smaller Capricho has been somewhat less than animated ever since. Before he used to run around, bucking, playing like mad in his paddock. Now, he mopes. He has pretty much stopped whinnying to me at all, which he had begun to do again even a few days before I made the mistake of putting these two horses together overnight. I can still get him to play at liberty, but he moves so much slower.
Does this ever get forgiven? I keep spending time with him just doing nothing, sitting beside him, or trading hugs, or just watching the birds… but it looks like he really took this hard. Talk about brio, this little guy was so proud until the larger horse humbled him.
What are your thoughts?
I am finding people curious about what I do with horses asking me more. I explain and direct them to your website and book/DVD’s. I offer to let them work with my horses. They have been very excited. All my horses have been exposed to the Rituals so they are very eager to befriend new people. I hope this is ok.
Hello Carolyn and friends,
I have been off the radar since we last spoke, Carolyn, but trust that I print every one of your posts and keep it in a CR WR notebook and it is a treasure that I go back to again and again and I know that many others are like me and may not respond to every post, but take the time to savor them when we can and then, as you say, do the very best reality of all—learn from them to interact with our own precious horses.
My latest herd story is a funny one about the Shetland Pony named Max who we adopted a year ago. He had been alone living nearby and had foundered several times and was so very sad by himself. My mare Chasta finally insisted that we bring him home and nurse him back to health so he was their gift for last Valentine’s Day. The ritual I observed of his arrival I will save for another story since it was as incredible as anything I have ever witnessed. And happily, he is fit as can be now and gallops with ease on those feet that were formerly crippled.
Fast forward to this year when my friend Marylin dropped off her mini mares for the winter while she goes to Arizona–Max’s first experience with them. He was in another pasture when they arrived and Chasta and Gaela, my mares called to them in greeting from over the feneline and lane, happy to have them back. Max took a look and began a trot up and down the fenceline. The minis said hello back in their little goatlike nickers and then promptly made themselves at home and headed down to the big pasture by the pond and settled in to a place they love.
I told Max I was ready to have him come with me to meet them. He is a friendly little fellow but if he had his way, would be horse #1. He has spent a year trying to take Gaela’s place as horse #2 in our herd and it has given her a whole new measure of confidence after being completely unnerved by his arrival attempting to take her spot. They are very close now, but she no longer quakes in her hooves when he snakes his head at her–she just plants herself and gives him a confident puffing out of her pretty chest. I have loved to watch her learn from Chasta , her lead mare. Max remains #3.
Max and I companion walked over to the pasture where Rosie and Goodie, the minis, were grazing below. What happened next surprised me but was hilarious to witness. Sweet little Max took off athe gallop and I thought he was eager to make their aquaintence like he had with Chasta and Gaela, but his bigger message was: “I may be horse number 3 to two big mares but I will be darned if I will be horse number 5 to two tiny mares like you!!!” He charged them with all he had and did some posturing kicks from a distance—”Take that!” So Goodie, the older and wiser mini, got between him and Rosie to protect her from the invader and got in her kicks back–none at close range— and then he headed them up into a corner, leading from behind, and parked them under a huge tree. They stayed back and kept their distance and within a few minutes. he could see that they were respecting his very obvious message , and were grazing together like happy pals. Since he has fallen in love with Rosie, who is also a chestnut with a flaxen mane and tail–the two of them are inseparable and eat togeher wherever they are.
Better than any movie in a theatre!
Happy Horses to all,
Connie Funk
test
To my readers,
I have had a problem in being able to send comments. This problem is now resoloved. I can now answere your questions.
What great pictures of what really happens!
Thanks,
Lori
Carolyn, everyone,
Well little Capricho (14 hands if he sucks in his breath) and big Capricho (16.5 hands?) had to part ways. Little boy gave it his best, rearing, playing, sneak attacks, but Big Capricho decided he was in love with me – won’t leave my side – and wouldn’t let little boy anywhere near me. I think Little Boy was humbled too, must have lost half a hand in height. Of course I think the area is too small – a quarter acre – so I’m going to put big boy in the 3 hectare pasture with the ladies, who ought to teach him herd conduct for the first time in his six year life. He’s gorgeous, but had been in a stall probably for all his adult life (save sudden requests to go pack someone up a mountainside) and his teeth had blackened from no grazing. So he’s off to join the herd. Little boy will join them somewhat later.
Since we’re in the link-trading mode, I guess this guy does the most amazing things I’ve ever seen at liberty with his six Lusitanos – Lorenzo – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQRxu44cd18
If it`s not snowing and the temperature is ok tomorrow I will start with the first UE. I´m really looking forward to start
And I will remember to take one step at a time!
Anna-Karin
Wow…Hi, I just saw the you tube of the horse joining the herd of the tour de France; a famous bicycle tour in France (Belgium and The Netherlands)…
this horse just joined them and went straight on…it’s French they are speaking….
I would like to show you a youtube of a herd-rescue in the north of the netherlands in 2006
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i6vSvOw-4U4
HI Carolyn
I haven’t been on the internet since Christmas, just haven’t had the desire to get all the connections together, I have dial-up and need to attach to the phone jack and the battery in my laptop is dead so I have to connect to a plug in the wall also. I might be a little depressed.
Anyway, I need to go back and review quite a few of your blog posts.
Thanks for continuing with your blog and the UE exercises.
I decided to try and do the UE with both of my horses in the arena this week. They are at a boarding facility that keeps the mares in one pasture, the geldings in an adjacent one. My gelding (17’2″ Fox Trotter) Sampson and my mare (16 hh Throughbred) Chica, were happy to be with each other after this much winter apart, or so I thought. At my place they were turned out together all last summer and had it all “sorted out”. When I brought them together this week Chica was clearly in season and wanted all of Sam’s attention and Sam kept wheeling and kicking at her to keep her away from him! He never connected but he looked like he was fighting for his life, or his territory. This mare has bad boundaries with people, much of my ground work alone with her has been sitting in a chair and shaking my stick around me to create space when she approaches. It is working but since our fun “family” day in the arena I am back to working with them one at a time. Today Sam was clearly dropping his head as the walk, allowing me to move his nose after he dropped and relaxed between my hands. I love this work. Thank you Carolyn!
It is not often I get to watch horses interact freely with one another, however today just as I was reading your blog I was watching two horses turned out in the arena, and I got so excited to see how one of them, the gelding, was leading the mare from behind and even taking territory when she wasn’t paying attention. I can’t stop watching them!
There was once a commercial that poked fun at people, their behavior of going with the popular trend…”stay or go with the herd…go with the herd”…funny. We horse folks want to understand herd dynamics – I think you’ll enjoy this YouTube, tho the quality leaves much to be desired, and I have NO idea what the speaker is saying or what language it is – be amazed at “THE POWER OF THE HERD !!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQSkmsFCjSA
Beth and Cookie,
in Virginia
It was very interesting to read about the various “herds.” At the moment I just have one Arabian gelding and a “companion” resuce pony. Actually, the pony is dominant if I put the two together–he just wants it so much he is rather impossible, so, so far, I keep them separated into different arenas next to each other where they can see each other. The pony keeps trying to demolish the fence between them. I wonder sometimes if I should let them be together. I may try again when the weather clears up again.
Hi Carolyn and fellow students:
Again, this timing is remarkable. Carolyn, I don’t know if you answer posts anymore but I’m kind of at a loss to know what if anything to do. Today we put the two Caprichos together in about a quarter acre pasture. At first they played equally, although big Capricho is perhaps 350 pounds bigger than little Capricho. At the end of the day big boy was driving little boy, although little boy would still come up from time to time for a sneak attack. They both have great brio, and I want to see that little boy keeps his proud spirit. Does he stand a chance of losing it if for the first time ever, another horse dominates him? Hopefully I’ll go out tomorrow and see them as buddies, but so it went today.
What is very positive is that big boy has been in a stall all his adult life (coming 6) and I am excited about him getting conditioned naturally through horseplay instead of some human agenda. He is magnificent, the spitting image of Lusitano breeding (although I think his ancestry was a common midnight Mexican stud service for his papers say nothing about it). I am sorry to say I’ve seen many horses here kept in stalls (probably because their owners couldn’t approach them otherwise) and then just taken out like a motorcycle to carry someone up the mountain every other week.
Remember I’m one of those Rip Van Winkle types, who spent 37 years without horses until last year after a childhood full of riding. So I am looking at everything with fresh and often skeptical vision. What is so striking is the difference between putting a horse in a stall and then subjecting them to some human scheme – say lunging in boring circles – versus the gymnastic potential in just letting horses play together as we saw these two do tonight. Also I had big boy’s shoes pulled – probably also for the first time ever – because I want his feet to grow naturally and even for his hooves to harden if they will. My hope is to totally recondition this horse by natural means. Little boy has never had shoes and has remarkable conformation. He is actually more nimble than the larger horse, agile as a squirrel. It seems there is nothing like horses getting in shape by playing together. I’ll see if I can’t get a video taken Monday when a friend with a camera comes over.
Thanks, Carolyn!
I watched an interesting new horse introduction last spring when I got a pony.
I keep my horse, Cookie (10 year old Percheron/Paint mare), at a lovely boarding stable that pastures between 30-40 horses on nearly 60 acres. All the boarders have horses, there are no ponies. I’ve always loved ponies and last spring, I acquired a 10 year old half-Shetland, half-Hackney 13.1 hand pony . . . Lady . . . a real cutie. . . black and white, like Cookie.
I had visions, happy plans for a harmonious little herd of Cookie, Lady and me.
Okay . . . this was before I read Naked Liberty, so I was living more in my anthropomorphic fantasy land than understanding the reality of horse rituals. Cookie and Lady, I knew, would have a period of adjustment, but then I was confident that they’d get along. I was, however, worried about little Lady’s well being upon her initial introduction to the large herd of large horses. So, I reasoned I’d put Cookie and Lady together in a paddock for a couple of weeks. So they’d “bond”…that was my thinking. Then Lady would have Cookie as a familiar buddy, sort of a security, when introduced to the herd at large.
Cookie has had my sole and undivided attention for five years; we’ve spent many, many happy, quiet hours together, mostly just hanging out; I believe we are fairly well bonded. The very moment Cookie saw the pony, it was as if Cookie knew that Lady wasn’t just another boarder horse…Cookie, to pin a human characteristic on her, showed every sign of being very jealous – at least so I thought at the time. Cookie treated the pony like she was scum. . . Lady was charged, bit, and chased away at every opportunity. Cookie could barely bring herself to mind her manners and be civil around the pony when I had them both haltered and out together. I was constantly telling Cookie, “Don’t bite the pony.” Cookie would take cheap shots at nipping the pony if I wasn’t on guard. However, I did believed that Lady was bonding to Cookie of sorts, for when I would take just Cookie out and ride off, Lady would dash about, upset at being left behind, despite the fact there were two other, regularly paddocked horses with her, so she wasn’t all alone.
The relationship between Cookie and Lady settled some, though Cookie was just barely tolerating the pony in my presence. After a couple of weeks, the day came when it was time to put both girls out in the big field with all the rest of the horses.
Cookie was happy to be back and, with no regard for Lady, simply and immediately left, went off to find her buddies.
Lady’s presence caused quite some excitement amongst a good number of the herd – there was much squealing, kicking, striking and chasing. For the most part, little Lady held her own in the crowd of larger horses … quick little “hellos”, quick to kick, quick to run as Lady “met” different herd members, one-by-one.
However . . .
One horse, a gelding, Shiloh (Tennessee Walker), took a particularly hateful and aggressive chasing attack towards Lady – who, naturally ran, ducked, and dodged like the dickens – she appeared terrified, Lady ran and ran and ran, as Shiloh chased her relentlessly, with clearly evil intent – ears pinned, head down, teeth bared to bit – relentless!! Shiloh acted ready to savage Lady, he was very scary !!
I was very alarmed, there was NOTHING I could do to intervene and save my pony. . . NOTHING but wring my hands and watch this drama unfold ! !
Enter MAYDAY ! !
Mayday, another gelding (Rocky Mountain Horse), MUCH TO MY RELIEF, stepped up and did the intervening (I’ve witnesses) – He’d been quietly watching the “introduction” activity from an aloof spot up the hill. Not long after Shiloh started his attack of Lady, Mayday started moving down the hill, picking up speed, and then he charged in, CLEARLY putting himself between Lady and Shiloh, multiple times. Maneuvering much like a cutting horse, Mayday was blocking Shiloh’s every turn, until Shiloh got the message that he was NOT allowed attack Lady. The herd settled down.
Mayday was Lady’s hero. Mayday was my hero, too.
I understand these interactions differently now, after reading Naked Liberty and this blog, than I did the day it all happened. Much thanks to your insightful work shared with all of us.
Lady fits into the herd – she has that stereotypical pony-mare chutzpah, and can drive away horses much, much larger than herself, yielding to others.
Cookie still wishes Lady would ~poof~ be gone – at least when I’m around.
And I have to be watchful when I have them out together, constantly reminding Cookie, “Don’t bite the pony.”
I’ve still much to learn
Hi Deborah, I have a gelding very much like Hawk and your post is very timely for me. Just last night I was thinking again on my gelding Buzha, he is at the bottom and exhibtiing the same behaviors, just such a brat, a little bit of an outcast, and I think it may have something to do with his dam letting him get away with being rude. Of all my horses, this gelding and his little brother have shown the same rude qualities. Their mom let them play very roughly using her as a sort of bouncy toy when most mares would tell their kids in no uncertain terms that they should straighten up and fly right! She was very protective of them and did not let other mares correct her foals either. They are the only foals I have had that I had to be very firm with in teaching them ground manners. On the other hand, my mares that are very strict with their foals produce youngsters that are very polite and responsive from the beginning. What do you all think?
Karen
I made some observations about herd behavior last night and would love to hear an interpretation from someone who is knowledgable about the waterhole rituals. A year ago I would have bought the Waterhole Ritual dvds within a day of discovering this website. This year I have to watch every expenditure to make sure my family of equines continue to get what they need, so that increasingly desirable purchase is on hold. In my circle of (mostly PNH) friends, I am the first to explore (and tout) this website, so I know no one who can lend them to me.
I have 20 horses and a mule. Fourteen live together in a 40 acre pasture and come in to their stalls twice a day for grain, blankets on, blankets off, etc. The others, for various reasons (mostly age and/or infirmity) live apart. Everyone comes in when it rains, because rain here often comes with thunderstorms and way too many local horses and cows die from being struck by lightning in pasture.
There are several permanent or semi-permanent sub-herds in my herd of 14. One stable group of 3 consists of B, a 20 year old TB who has been with my herd (whose composition has changed over the years) for 18 years. B is now the senior surviving herd member in terms of time in the herd, although several horses are older. B used to be dominent over everyone, although another TB gelding has since taken that position from him. B is bonded to a TB mare and her daughter, and those three are always fairly close together in the field. They usually come in to the barn together also, but while the mares like their stalls and relax in the barn, B does not. He gets fretful after being in the stall a while and is impatient to be turned out again.
Last night the rains came in after midnight. I usually don’t bring the horses in when it’s dark for logistical reasons, but last night’s storm was supposed to be bad and it was very cold (for Florida). When I called them to the gate, B and his ladies galloped up first. I opened the gate to let them go into the barn. The girls went right in, but B turned and galloped back into the dark pasture. Most of the others came to the gate when I called and I let them out in groups of two or three, ushered them to the barn and closed them into their stalls. When I release larger groups, sometimes a few will leave me to go exploring, not desirable in the dark cold rain. When the process of ushering the waiting horses into the barn was complete, somewhere in the dark there were four holdouts, including B, who declined to come to my call.
I walked out and found the four standing back-to-the-wind in the center of the pasture, looking alert and tense. B moved away from me when I tried to halter him, which is very unusual. Instead of insisting and possibly spooking them all, I haltered the next-dominent horse, a big mare. I expected them all to follow me and her back towards the barn. But the others looked at B, who did not move. No one followed us. After we walked a short distance away by ourselves, I went back and put the leadrope around the neck of the remaining mare. I led the two mares back to the barn. B and the remaining gelding just stood in the rain and watched us go.
When I went back, B still did not want to be caught. I called the other gelding, haltered him and led him back to the barn, expecting B to follow. He did not. When I made another trip down the field and asked him to lower his head for the halter, he bolted towards the barn. He was waiting at the gate when I trudged up but it took me a few minutes to persuade him to let me halter him.
I wish I understood more about what happened. While B clearly preferred freedom in the rainy night to being shut in his stall, it is far from normal for him or anyone to choose to be alone rather than stay with their herd. Would knowledge of the Waterhole Rituals have enabled me to persuade B to come in when he first came galloping up to my summons?
Update! Poor Hawkie, back to the bottom of the herd, and Gunner has taken on the number three spot. It’s not so much about Hawk losing, but the mares respecting and liking Gunner more than they like Hawk. Gunner was nominated to the position, or maybe earned it? Hawk is terribly dominate, bratty, pushy, and that gets him no where with the herd. Gunner, who has never been with a herd, figured things out pretty quickly. Respect the lead mare, respect everyone’s bubble, and play nice with the girls. Bit, who was almost violent with Gunner (protecting her place with my lead mare, Eclipse) is now totally in love with Gunner, and has joined up with him. Even Eclipse, who is pretty reserved, really likes Gunner. Hawk? He’s the horse that I think would find himself kicked out of the herd, in the wild. He is often lagging along behind, taking a bite at a butt, snaky necking, and being annoying. He still hasn’t figured things out. Often off grazing alone.
At the risk of putting human thoughts into this, it seems the herd flows nicely when everyone does their job, is respectful of one another, and follows the rules of the herd. Sharing territory, the first ritual, really creates that peaceful, in the moment place that horses find so wonderful. I think I was a lot like Hawk before I started the whr’s. Probably more annoying, needy, and inflicted myself on the herd. Gunner just naturally lives in that peaceful place horses love so much. He has no problem setting healthy boundaries, but he’s the kind of horse you just love keeping company with. Sharing territory has taught me to be more like Gunner. The horses are my emotional and spiritual barometers, and if I get it right, I get invited to the party. Like Gunner. If I don’t, I find myself lagging behind, like Hawk.
We think we are the teachers, but honestly I think we get that backwards. When it comes to relationship, we have everything to learn from them.
Thank you all for your insights, fascinating!
Ang.
Hi everybody
I didn’t have a newcomer lately but the opposite, one of my horses past away. This had a big influence in the herd. It’s now 1,5 months ago and there’s still some fight between two members. Popov always stood in the middle of those two when they were eating hay, he was respected and second in rang. They still haven’t found out who’s going to be the lowest horse. Every day they play their rituals, the mare helps one horse, Taco to reach the best place by sending the other one, Jaguar away. The leader doesn’t intereact but sometimes he has to defend himself against Jaguar. After a while I can see him demanding the mare to make an end to this game and she shases Jaguar away. Jaguar tries to hit the one who follows him but the leader turns himself and rears. Very interesting to see.
After the game, they all stand together but the mare does not allow Jaguar nexto her.
When the mare Vanille arrived at our place, Jaguar (not being the leader though) reacted very possesive and not one horse was allowed to come in her company or even say hello to Vanille. After a week, Jaguar couldn’t hold the guard anymore and Vanille started to chase him away very soon after that.
Have a nice day tine
Hello,
thank you for having taken up the herd topic. As for now we never have put more than three horses together. Clarence usually says hello, then leaves and looks for a spot to stay for herself and nobody chases her. I suppose she is a high rank mare. Sometimes they run together kicking into the air. Seems like playing, they never hurt each other.
Some days ago we had a newcomer mare, who we put together with MonaLisa, a mare with a very balanced character. I could observe how horses defend two spots of territory (like you showed in Liberty Training). The new mare defended her pile of hay and water bucket and chased MonaLisa also off the other (Monalisa’s) pile and bucket. She didn’t let her eat nor drink. -
Today I’m quite excited, because Clarence will be turned to barefoot – I’m a little worried about the transition period.
Greetings from Italy
Andrea
Hi Carolyn, This is my first time on your blog. Late last year I was given a 13.2hh appaloosa gelding. I already have 5 minis 3 are mares 2 geldings and one 12.2hh pony 21 years old she is the boss of my herd. When Zen arrived I kept them separate but they could see him. I put the quiet Travis in with him to help calm him down because he had been fence walking then touched my electric fence after it had rained flipped over backwards falling onto my sheep wire fencing getting up stuck his hoof in the wire. I was able to free him with just a scratch. After that episode I turned the electric fence off and introduced him to them one at a time h e was told by all of them to give the herd their space and for some time he was on the outer if Maddy thought he was getting to close to the herd he was driven back. Zen was very unconfident to start with but I started to use food placing it on his halter on barrels, post, ball, tarp even the saddle and pad. He is more confident now and seems to stand his ground more when Maddy tells him to move he has some bite marks to prove it and he drives other herd members around now. I would say he is second in my herd now. Thank you for your beautiful DVDs and books just started reading your Blog Collection book while sharing territory with Zen. I watch DVD call Such is The Real Nature of Horses a study made of wild horses 20 years ago in the Camargue Marshes beautifully filmed. Sandra
Hello Carolyn,
Thank you so much for teaching us about the natural horse, and introducing us to herd dynamics. My former reiner has never been out in a pasture with other horses, except when he was foal. When I let him get close to other horses at the stable when we are on our walks, he noses them, but doesn’t do they horsey scream, or doesn’t strike out. My guess he would be low in the pecking order of a herd, but I’m not sure on that. It is so interesting to see how new horses adjust to a herd, and how that herd gets back to equalibrium once all the introductions and adjustments have been made.
Be well….
Barbara and Monie
Hi Carolyn,
When will you have more “Waterhole Rituals” DVDs available?
Nancy
Hi Carolyn,
As of Feb 1, I moved my mare Folly to a new barn, and she has been put into a paddock with 5 other horses. She is at the bottom of the rankings, and can be driven off by any of the others. We have not yet bonded, so I am not very important to her.
On the day after she was introduced to this herd, I went in to see her. She came to me immediately, as she had been off in a corner on her own. I made a point to FIRST introduce myself to each horse, and then casually walk around asking each one to move along.
Then I deliberately moved them all away from the hay, and refused to allow any of them to approach the food, except for Folly. Once they realized they could not come back to it, they drifted off looking for something else to do. Folly ate some hay, but she seemed a bit nervous. I decided to let the others back, so I gathered an armful of hay and took it into a corner for Folly, who followed me and started eating it.
WELL! Did that make everyone upset! They ALL tried to drive her away from her little pile of hay! Nobody was anywhere near the main hay supply, they were all trying to chase Folly away from this little pile I gave her! So, of course, I defended that pile! However, Folly herself got their message, because she just moved away to a quiet spot by herself and did not try to eat anymore. Interesting.
Since then, she has been allowed to spend time with the others at the hay, although she is still chased a bit. I however make it a point to interact with all of the horses every day, usually just a “hello”, and sometimes taking territory. This I think will help me stay safer in that paddock whenever I need to come in and interact with Folly. But I also hope that Folly will see me as someone who can control the other horses, and therefore she will see me as important to her. Time will tell, and I am prepared to take whatever time she needs.
Carolyn, thanks so much for giving us this wonderful forum to exchange ideas. Your approach has changed my entire mindset about working with my horses. Now I am in their world, instead of expecting them to decipher the incomprehensible world of homo sapiens.
Bonnie
Carolyn
This is great to see how everyone can make the same observations with their own horses!
Sally
Dear Carolyn,
I just wanted to say Thank You. I got my UB strapes in the mail today. Been watching my DVD. Read Naked Liberty. I hope to start working with my Magnum once this blizzard in PA. stops. ~Lisa
Dear Carolyn,
I never tire of observing herd dynamics. I’m always happy when you write about them as you have given me so much insight into them.
My mare Lili is a very very dominant horse. I have never ever seen her being led from behind by any horse. When being integrated with other horses, she always drives other horses from behind, from the first second. When there is a strong established herd dynamic in a herd that she joins, she will first attempt to provoke confrontations by charging at the high ranking horses and turning to kick, and then just isolate herself and stick to herself. It takes her a very very long time to make any affective connection with other horses.
However, when I bought my colt at 1 month of age, and he came to our farm with his mother, whom I had on lease until he was weaned, Lili ran up to him first with a strong maternal nicker, and then to the other mare and from the first minute was inseparable from her. I was worried that the mother mare would defend her baby and that there would be warfare. They never had any confrontation whatsoever. In fact, I never was able to tell whether one of the mares held rank over the other one. They were like of the same mind at all times, like twins. They both looked very similar, same color, same height, similar breeding, approximately same age. Lili immediately adopted the colt as hers, and the other mare (the mother) accepted this shared motherhood. When I weaned the colt and the owners picked up the mother mare, Lili let the colt suckle on her udder, but just two times. Now that the colt is getting studdy (he is coming 2), she no longer wants to be around him as much as before, but as for now, he is the only horse whom she will not dominate. When he gets too rambunctious, she will threaten to cow-kick him. He tried to herd her, and she just backs into him. He gets away with way too much, and I separate them for a good portion of the day, and he is with other male horses so that he can learn respect. With her, he will always reep all the benefit of her high rank and be protected by her, yet not be disciplined sufficiently by her. Do you think she sees herself as a mother? Is it typical that mares will not really put their colts in a proper herd hierarchy, even after they have grown up, especially if the mares are high-ranking?
If you have any insight, I’d appreciate to hear about it.
All my best,
Christian
Carolyn, my little herd dynamic today I found interesting. I think I am only scratching the surface of beginning to understand their behaviors but through your blogs and your book it is starting to gel with me. I board my horses so don’t see them every day and they are both in different pens. Joker is more dominant and would probably bully Midas like crazy so they are not together. Midas tends to give in easily so is usually bottom or next to bottom of his group. He just tends to stay away from trouble.
Anyway today I brought both into the indoor arena (so kind of neutral territory for them and maybe perceived as my territory?). Initially they just said hello to each other and ran around a little and both got a roll in after blankets taken off. Midas tends to hang pretty close to me most of the time and Joker can be a little more aloof. Well Midas was just hanging by me and Joker wanted to come up for some attention and quick as a flash, pinned his ears and tried to take a chunk out of Midas rump. I responded fairly quickly and moved Joker away from us and had him continue to move around the arena at a trot. Midas and I stayed in the middle. Well the look on Jokers face was a kind of “I am annoyed that you could make me move away…my intent was to have Midas move…What happened??” This look after about 4 laps disintegrated very obviously to an “I’m sorry, I will be good now can I come in and say hello?”
I let him come in , he said hello to me then Midas and for the rest of our time (30 minutes) the three of us were a happy group.
I think it was a good learning experience for Joker and myself and maybe I moved up the ladder a notch?
Sorry I rambled on a bit but I am learning so much watching the different groups of horses at the barn and reading everyones posts here…I love it!!
Hi,
I’m new her…and I read about the herd introduction experiences.
My 1,5 year old mare Nikkidy (who lived the first year in a herd but had two major accidents for which she had tot go to the hospital and was operated twice, shoulder and hind leg) lives next to her mother and during the day they are together in the pasture. At night the live in two seperate outdoor stables (amongst a lot of other horses).
I want my horses to live as natural as possible (near Amsterdam, The Netherlands) and so I decided that, since Nikkidy recovered from her last operation in June, she is going to a small herd living in a paddock with a shelter 24/7.
Can you please advice me in how to introduce her to the herd (older mares and a gelding).
We thought of introducing her first to the alfa mare (who is nice to younger horses, as I was told) and then once they have settled down a bit, to introduce her to the others.
I’m quite stressed about the whole project but I think she really needs a herd. I should trust her now and give her the opportunity to be a healthy horse in stead of a recovering foal….
Her mother wil follow in the summer. But then it will be in the pasture and she is an alfa mare….so I’m not worried about her.
Nikkidy is quite ‘clumsy’ and for her it is difficult to yield for pressure. She yields for the pressure of her mother and starts yielding when I ask her to step aside, but not always. She is quite mouthy, dominant and a very happy creature.
I hope you can advice me.
Thanks in advance.
Hannelies Bongaerts
Hello Carolyn,
here in dreamvalley a lot of herd watching is going on in these days. We are having two herds introduced to one another. One of the herds with 11 members have been living together in a stable situation for at least 10 years, the other herd of 4 has only come together this autumn. We have built a safe wooden fence on a little bridge, so one, maximum two horses at a time can meet over the fence. So now the herds are sharing territory & saying hello to one another each day for a couple of hours. Its’ so fascinating to watch! The first days only the herd leaders were allowed to stand nose to nose and share territory and/or say hello. Now as days pass by, each herd member of each herd seems to find a time to greet an individual of the other herd. They seem to enjoy this daily ceremony a lot, and I also think it is a good preparation before we introduce both herds into one area again. (When we brought them all together the first day, the well established herd of 11 acted like an ‘ice army’ – they chased the newcomers away and off their territory with a very strong powerful energy. All of them worked together… the 4 newcomers ran home and were quite exhausted then…) We could clearly see the function of specific herd members then. I’d love to send you some very nice pictures of that event, but how can I get them onto the blog? Tina
Hi Carolyn!
Really share your enthusiasm for herd dynamics (although I would never, never presume to understand all your insights)! Sebastian, the new boy on the block here, continues his integration with our two mares, too. The dynamics are quite complicated, though.
I witness on the one hand, how our four year old filly, Doll, protects Lucy who is about to have a foal, while at the same time likes to flirt a little. There was a time when Sebastian seemed to get the two mares to follow him, but then the lead mare, Lucy, took things in another direction and he was left to one side. And so had to start over and try to impress the other two that he was worthy of attention.
By the way, in theory, Sebastian had no trouble with the most recent US exercise. He seemed to think that I was asking him to look for food on the floor and followed quite happily with his head close to the ground. I have a feeling you are going to tell me that he should have been paying attention to me rather than the ground. And, of course, that should have been the case, but he was just so happy trying to please, trying to make sense of what I was asking him. Whatever the outcome we were having fun and enjoying each other’s company. Who could ask for anything more wonderful!
Thank you for sharing your wonderful gift and insights with us.
Hi Carolyn, and very timely. We completed a pole paddock on the newly rented parcel, and today I put little Capricho (maybe 850 lbs) in to stay for awhile. I had been putting him in a pen at the other place with big Capricho (Lusitano, probably at least 1,200 pounds) where those two commenced to playing. They also kept trying to sneak up on each other, then big Capricho would put his head over the rump of little boy and just stayed there. Sometimes they would clamp their teeth on the other’s neck, just holding that pose, then let go. They would rear up – not fighting, but playing, although big boy eventually got the better of the smaller one. Little Capricho still keeps sneaking up trying to startle big Capricho. I think however they will be good friends.
Should I try to separate them when the rearing game starts, and take control of herd dynamics? So far I have just put them in together for maybe up to an hour, to see how it goes. I want them to join the other four horses who are in a herd, but after they work things out between the two of them.
Also I plan on having the two mares bred, thinking that the dominant one (Auntie Rosie) will be a little more mellow once pregnant. She is pretty big, and I worry about her maybe hurting the geldings. She is such a dominatrix. Probably I will have the two mares apart from the others for awhile, let the geldings and the one filly settle their affairs, then reintroduce the mares. The big pasture is three hectares. They should be able to get along well at that rate.
Thanks again for the posting.
Dear Carolyn!
I have just yesterday had the opportunity to watch a new member in a herd. Actually the horse had been there before but have been moved because it did,nt work properly, i am not quite sure what had happen but yesterday i was wittness to a lesson in horse behavior.
In your video you tell what happens when you put a new horse into the herd. All the other get frighten of what will happen, is he going to take their place in the peckingorder so they have to chase him to be sure that he find his place at the bottom.
I have a fortnight ago placed my shetlandspony in a new herd. There are five horses muche bigger than her and she has been moved around but today it really seemed that she has established.
Yesterday the 6th horse entered. As i wrote in the beginning he had been there before so it was only a neuter (can’t remember what an ex-stallion i called, hope you understand anyway) that really reacted and chased the new – and then my little pony!!!! She didn´t knew him an she was very eager to tell him that he was below her, She stayed nearby him and went to his back but as soon he showed interest in her she threw her back legs in his direction!!!! She chased him a couple of times and then they calmed down.
It was funny to watch because she is only about 92 centimeters and he at least 1, 55 m.
But I thourght of you and what I have learned from your video.
Your sincerly
Helle