No Treats For The Hello Ritual
May 27th, 2010 by Carolyn Resnick Method
Hi, this is Mark here. As you may have seen, Carolyn’s site has been down the last day or so for which I profusely apologize. At this stage, we do not know exactly what happened. I am guessing it was some sort of hack attack, a professional hazard of working online. Anyway, we have restored a backup from LAST SUNDAY 23rd, so if you made a comment on or since then, it may have been lost. Please go back and check if you are not sure.
Apologies once again and normal service will now been resumed… here’s Carolyn!
As many of you know, I use treating and food very specifically and purposefully in my work with horses. However, in the ‘Saying Hello’ Waterhole Ritual, you do not want to use treats. The reason for this is it causes the horse to focus on the treat and not on you.
I gained a deeper insight into why not to use treats during the Hello Ritual from the dog whisperer, Cesar Milan. Watching his TV show, I learned more clearly the way a dog’s mind operates. I was feeding my food-aggressive dog, Apollo, the way Cesar suggested and now that I have learned the significance of why it is important, training my dog has become a lot easier.
Cesar said that you need to be the pack leader. One way to get a dog to understand this point is during feeding time; you ask the dog to look at you rather than the bowl of food you are holding. If you don’t do this, the dog will fixate on and become possessive of the food. However if the dog is looking at you instead of the food it, means that he is listening to you and sees you as the leader. How simple is that?
In my course, I gave guidance to a couple of people to give a treat in the Saying Hello Ritual and then I noticed the difference with several people to whom I had not suggested using treats. Please then follow the Ritual as it was meant to be used unless I am personally coaching you. Treating in this Ritual has a danger of getting the horse to want the treat rather than the relationship. When I have suggested to a person to use a treat with the Hello Ritual, I am careful to add more opportunities to make up for the loss of connection that offering a treat at this time would cause.
You could be in danger of developing a trained circus horse mentally through treating and this is not the result you are after. You do not what a horse to begin performing by rote. What you want is a partnership in connection through the horse’s desire for you and not your treat. I want horses at liberty to be able to work with you in spontaneous expressions of the dance. YOU are learning with my Method how to shape a connection with your horse in moments of free expression not to train a behavior. Working with freedom, you will learn how to keep the dance alive and connected at the same time, even in the fall out.
As everyone advances, don’t be tempted to make it easy on yourself and take shortcuts with treats just to get performance or to keep the connection. The connection and performance comes to you from the practice of the Rituals and your growing ability to use body language and leadership when the magnetic connection is present
Building a true relationship with a horse has many aspects: it is not just about treating or not treating, its about building a partnership through everyday bonding rituals that are natural to horses. Remember the focus is to be aware of where the relationship is going and lead it to a deeper connection.
Carolyn
Related posts:
Dear Carolyn
Thank you very much for your advice! I will do the two exercises as you described. Thank you very much for taking your time to give me some advice. It is very much apreciated and a big help!
All the best, Natalie
Hello–thank you for this information. I will use treats with extra awareness. I am always looking for the connection and wanting it to be about the relationship.
Love, Connie
Dear Natalie,
The head up and head down expercise is a good one to slow up a horse and to be less grabbie.
Stand a distance with your hand out and ask your horse to come up and then just before your horse gets to your hand ask for halt and to back. Carry the treat to her lips. If her lips are grabby ask her to back up again and wait. If she reaches a gain take your hand back and ask her to back again. If she is really grabby parctice this same action with out the treat in your hand and use a treat that she is not so fond of like oat hay or straw then when she is really good at that increase the yummy factor, oat hay to carrots in little pices to small piece of a cookie. With my horses I can hold the treat up to the lips of my horse and my horse will not move their lips untill I invite them to. Progress is achieved from noticing the small changes in progress and asking for small improvements only. Don’t expect progress in one session or try to get it just practise the exerices with no concern.
The other exercise is to ask for your horse to wait and if your horse stands very still there is a cookie in it for him. In a short while the horse knows that the pause of stillness gets the cookie. IF your horse trys to grab the cookie then back your horse up and as her to wait again. I will ask my horse to wait as long as five minuets and my horse enjoys the wait but I build up to this ability.
Hope this is of help.
Dear Carolyn, dear Maja, dear all
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences about giving treats. It is also with me an important issue.
My mare Aicha is very similar to Marja’s Saegola. She will wait in her place for the treat but then go and get it with nearly swallowing my hand as well (not pushy or vicious more like clumsy and greedy). I haven’t managed to teach her to take the treat politely jet.
I am not quite sure if the method that worked for Marja and Saegola would work for us, so I just wanted to know if you had any suggestions Carolyn on how I could teach her to take the treat politely. Aicha is polite until the second I stretch out my hand with the treat.
Many thanks!
Natalie (In a Box)
Hi there ~
I, too, am a HUGE Cesar Millan fan and MAJOR horse lover!! I live to jump!! Come visit me some time at http://www.stabledays.typepad.com.
@raya
Hi Carolyn,
#18 – “What you are doing is keeping your focus on the evolution of the relationship moment by moment and staying intouch with your horse and being aware of your inner voice.”
Yes, that’s what it felt like; what I did definitely improved our relationship. Thanks for replying Carolyn, I appreciate it
!
Dear Marja, 17
If it is working and you like what you are doing stick to it. Some times our best teachers in life is experiance, tryal and errorand knowingness. It is how I got to were I am today. What you are doing is keeping your focus on the evolution of the relationship moment by moment and staying intouch with your horse and being aware of your inner voice. When you do that a wisdom comes that supports your adventures with out horse if of course you first have a strong foundation in experiance with horses.
Thanks for getting back to me.
Carolyn, would you please clarify your comment (16): “For the insider circle and the box students please use your page for discussing your progress of the method or anything that is in the course”?
I was under the (obviously incorrect) impression that we were supposed to use Responses to each of your posts for the purpose of describing our progress through the program. The only other page I am aware of (other than the discussions on http://horseconscious.ning.com) is http://www.carolynresnickblog.com/coaching/insider-circle/questions-for-carolyn. I thought we were supposed to limit our posts on that site to a single paragraph posing a specific question for you.
Please provide the exact website address of the page where you want us to post narratives that are written simply to share our progress and experiences as we move though the course and which do not involve a specific question for you.
Thanks for responding Carolyn (#14).
Saegola always stays in place when I take her a treat, that wasn’t the problem. The thing was that when I held out my hand with the treat she found it hard to control her head, lips and teeth. She alternated between turning her head to the side politely at first and then suddenly reaching forward (with her head only, not by stepping forward) and tried to grab the treat out of my hand quite rudely. I wanted her to take the treat carefully out of my hand, not in a grabbing or nipping way, that’s why I drew back my hand, out of her reach. You’re absolutely right about the personal space rights, but I never step back and Saegola never leaves her spot as well (I’m always very keen on her respecting my space). She understood this drawing back of my hand very well, because she began reacting the way I wanted very soon, by taking the treat much more softly. So I feel I did the right thing here, with the right outcome. Please let me know if this makes sense to you.
For the insider circle and the box students please use your page for discussiing your progress of the method or anyting that is in the course.
Robyn, 12
My blog is a place to talk to me. This is my class room for people that come to my blog. It is a class room not a chat room.
Dear Marja, 13,
Do not draw back your hand when holding a treat in front of your horse. It can cause a horse to feel teased and you loose your personal space rights in her mind. It give her permission to challenge you. Ask your horse to stay in place and when she does take her the treat. It will go much faster and with less argument.
Thanks for your suggestions Carolyn
(#9).
As always: it’s much simpler than we think it is… So I will remember this one: “When your horse gets focused on the treats, is rushy or being rude, stop treating. If the treats are making a better connection, use them.”
As for the ‘waiting patiently for the treat’: I have been practicing this lately with my food oriented mare Saegola. She has a tendency to show two extremes: either to politely turn her head away, or to try to grasp the treat out of my hand very quickly, and these two can alternate like lightning, so I decided to keep my hand with the treat closed and upside down until Saegola softly touches my hand instead of rudely ‘investigating’ it with lips and teeth. If she nips, I draw back my hand. At first she got very impatient (pawing her foot etc.), but I persisted and because she’s a very intelligent horse, she learned fast. Now she’s much more relaxed in taking treats
!
hi everyone, robyn bardas here again, in a box.
i’ve been feeling i don’t spend enough time in the horses’ paddock before i catch them and lead them to the arena to s t !! so i’ve started sharing territory with them in their paddock before i catch anyone. it means we all do it together (not just with tom who i’m doing the course with) but it’s working beautifully.
i sit on the rocks with them, and they all 3 usually straight away come and investigate, and have some chill out time with me, noses down all around. today billy our lead mare (qh x hannovarian) stuck close behind me, touching, and kept the others away. they lined up in order behind her, and all dozed.
i’ve been thinking about music, and tried rehearsing some singing solos with them. i think that’s what made billy keep me all to herself. she nudged me every time i stopped.
the two youngsters tom (6yrs andalusian x) and cooper (3yrs arab x colt) like chewing the halters in my hands, so i tried gently retrieving them and saying ‘thankyou’, like it was their idea to offer it back to me. soon tom knocked my hat off and i said ‘thankyou’ as he was wondering what to do, so he’d given it back before he realised.
enjoying not just being a fair weather friend, and going out in the rain and snow,
robyn
hi carolyn, robyn bardas in new zealand, in a box here.
tom (andalusian x 6yr) always wants to be with me, so this is the first time i’ve used treats ( a little reluctantly/fearfully i have to admit) i’m glad i’ve had the guts to try…after watching laura’s video on the ning thing. he’s cottoned on instantly, and is happy with or without already.
i have him taped off from his friends and he’s started leaning on it to bust through and get to them. i firstly waved him off with the reeds, and now have been gently telling him no and pointing out his hay on his side, and treating him when he stops leaning and forgets about it. after 3 rounds, he leans, i tell him not to and he walks over casually for a treat…….am i training him to lean???
thanks, ritualing in the rain and snow,
robyn
thanks again Carolyn….
Stuart
Dear Marja, #5
It is easy to know when to treat. My Dad taught me. When your horse gets focused on the treats, is rushy or being rude, stop treating. If the treats are making a better connection, use them. So simple. As you go along, you will learn more on how to create a positive response around treats by spending more time on lessons about waiting patiently for the treat. I find that I can really empower people if they think of teaching their horse the pause as a trick they are training their horse. I don’t want my students to think of trick training because we are working with extemporaneous connections, however thinking of the “Pause” as a trick really helps and empowers the human to really focus on the importance of this behavior).
My secret is that I teach all my horses that being polite and waiting on one spot is a trick that gets a treat. What this develops into is a horse that will stand alone, just about anywhere, enjoying the pause, forgetting about the treat all while being completely connected.
When a horse moves to this level of connection, you can feel the bond that the horse is sending you while he is waiting and you can taste the magic. The horse for some reason becomes at one with you in the pause, which is like a meditation for him. When he gets in this state, he becomes aware he is waiting for you,and in his waiting, it brings him joy. When a horse becomes this focused, you can feel his well being so strongly it is humbling.
Hi Carolyn, I did what you suggested with my little black stallion. I realized that being a baby he was focusing too much on my chair and what I was doing so I changed it uo by grooming him and getting to know all the places that he liked to be rubbed and scratched . He is really a pretty sweet little guy now. I have been walking him around the property and he has really changed into a respectful willing fellow . The rest of the horses in the herd I have been leading from behind and walking around the paddock.. ST. I am quite happy to remain doing this . They ( the entire herd have been healing me and making me strong) I am so grateful to each and every one of them. The stallion was in my face to teach me how to take back my power in a gentle knowing way and it came to surface this past week when I had to face my ex-husband in court. I know we have a great bond and trust that will only deepen with time. The day before my court appearance they all gathered around me. It felt like a group hug. Thank you Sherry ……..
I never give treats when I am working with any of the horses only when I am finished …….. and I always verbally say look at me ……. I have always done this with my dogs and my kids I believe it teaches respect …… my dogs automatically sit and look at me when they wish to communicate anything ……
Insiders Circle
Checking in.
Thank you for your thoughts on this. I agree there is a fine line and I think I am still balancing it out with my horse. Everyday is a new learning experience. This is definitely ‘food’ for thought:).
Thank you for your explanation about why we should not use treats in the Hello ritual. The whole question of when treats should (and should not) be used to help us reach the best results in relationship development is of the utmost importance to me. This issue is challenging and I am constantly trying to evolve a consistent theory, but so far have not been able to do so. Mostly, I give a treat when it “feels” like I should, but explaining why treats feel right in one situation and wrong in another seems to be beyond me.
I find it easy to reject the two extremes: No-Treats-Ever vs. He’s-Near-Me-So-I’ll-Pop-Him-A-Carrot. For a while, I was happy with the idea of using treats as “rewards” for desirable behavior, as distinguished from “bribes” to induce desirable behavior (hold the carrot in front of his nose to lure him into the trailer). But that distinction has slippery-slope issues and the more I played with it, the less well it held up. Treats have many legitimate uses and some can be called “rewards” only by really straining the terminology. For example, when I am first meeting a horse who is wary of people because of prior bad experiences, I find that frequent treats for tiny gestures of acceptance, like looking at me and daring to sniff me, is a quick, sure way to tell the horse that those gestures, and the subsequent relaxation they induce, are good things. When a horse is innocently rude and I have to move him out of my space, I often pop him a treat when he backs off to say thanks-for-not-being-too-pushy-no-hard-feelings-here’s-a-cookie. Of course, sometimes this just makes him pushier, but sometimes it doesn’t.
I look forward to sharing other people’s thoughts about the proper role of treats and any further clarifications from Carolyn about the best use of treats in the other Rituals, and in general.
Yes, how to handle the treat issue is very important. There always has to be a balance in the way you provide them to your horse, which is not always easy to determine.
.
Also I find the respect of my horses at feeding time very important. Sometimes all seven horses are standing around while I’m filling the hayfeeders, and I don’t want them to barge in on me. Asking for their polite behavior is a daily, never ending, but fun ‘training’. Last week I made this video at feeding time
Moyna and Carolyn,
It seems just as I am exploring ideas, your blog speaks right to the very topic I am in need of.. Just like “being Rude” behavior your blog address the very issue. Recently is was about how to use/ not over use treats, and the issue of focusing on me not the treats. When it came to learning to load in the trailer, how much did I focus on the invitation to come in and join me vs come in and eat and get treats. There is a huge difference. Getting away from the food and treats to just come in and be in the trailer.
Moyna,Thank you for thet reminder and validation about treats and the herd of 5 dynamics. .
I have the herd of 3 right now, at liberty at all times in 39 acres of pasture. When food is brought out, hay or feed in buckets. It can get become an issue. With the watering hole rituals, one becomes the leader and each horse learns to respect the space and stand or avoid getting to close to the food before being asked/ invited to their spot. This is for safety of all of us. The horses and humans in the same space…. Food/ Treats in the past was an issue with safety at feeding time. As food was the focus and it can not become the focus, this all makes so much sense. Thank you again Carolyn for being so articulate with this learning process.
Cheers,
Celia McCormack
I think I use too many treats. I think using them at times when something has gone well is good, but if I get to generous with the treats, yes, as Carolyn says, the focus is off me, & on the horse—then you start getting thoughtless “nipping” for a treat.
Good reminder, & always good advice from Carolyn.
Hi all,
It’s good see some people not “treating” just whenever, and that there’s good reason for it when it’s used. Looking at it from a safety viewpoint it doesn’t seem “healthy” to teach a horse to associate food with any part of the human body. I use treats but as far as my horse is concerned they come from his bucket; not my hands. He’s learned to wait patiently until the treat is in the bucket.
G’day Carolyn,
this is an interesting one for me, as I also work with dogs. I too have learned a lot from Cesar & his intuitive understanding of the predator mind.
It is fascinating to me how there are some similarities, but some great differences between ‘pack’ dynamics & ‘herd’ dynamics.
I never use treats on meeting/greeting dogs, for reasons you have mentioned… Another important tip is that you do not ‘always’ give a food reward, mix it up with other rewards, such as touch, kind voice praise, etc. Of course you must also use judgement as to which rewards mean the most to individuals.
I have not introduced food rewards for working with Hero yet, as I feel it would complicate things for me at this point (he is so bold & cheeky, he would be ‘in my pocket’ all the time! LOL!)
However, I do give all the horses some carrot, after greeting, just as a friendly thing.
The great lesson I have learned from this is that for me, the carrots have become a great tool to explain to the herd that they must ‘stand off’ me & be polite, wait their turn.
However, I must admit, I was a bit naive at first & things can get a little ‘hairy’ when you have 5 horses all wanting their carrot! But this is how I learn.
By the way, we now have an Aussie Group on HorseConscious, so lots of sharing going on!
Whinneys,
Moyna, Hero, Buddy & the herd
Carolyn,
Good information as always with plenty of thought behind and it for us to chew on. I have been reading and rereading Animals Make us Human and Animals in Translation by Temple Grandin, on the advice of Robin Gates recommendation. I have found much to think about regardless of the species discussed in the various chapters. Cesar and his animals are also discussed. Her books have made great food for thought during my sitting with True along with print outs of your blog. “True didn’t want to move from my side the other day sitting dispite the gallovants of the other horses in their paddocks. She eventually napped right next to me.
Thanks again for sharing your rich thoughts, they are a great gift to us.
I have always made a point of going to say hello to my horse in his paddock without necessarily collecting him to work. Just a hi and a pat. He is always pleased to see me, and will most often leave his buds and wander along behind me while I check out the paddock and pretend to pull out weeds, or do something that looks interesting. If I have time, I might even sit in a corner and read a bit. He quite often hears my voice, then comes along on his own accord. Every now and then he will trot over, which of course just makes my day!
I always have a small treat to give him when I return him to his paddock. He has to walk into the paddock, turn and stand while I close the gate and remove his halter. He waits for his treat, then will walk away to have a drink of water or roll or whatever. This does away with the very irritating and dangerous habit horses get into of jerking their heads out of their halter and charging away.
Good advise Carolyn. I do not use treats with the Hello Ritual. My 4 year old will always reach out to say Hello. My 17 yr old gelding at first did not reach out for me. He would look at me, but keep eating. I would turn and walk away not forcing him to do it. But he is now starting to greet me back. I believe he was thinking “what does she want from me” because in the past, that was pretty much the case. I did want something from him. It’s just so nice to see the mind working, the eyes asking and soften and wondering too. I am seeing and feeling both the physical and emotional changes in both of us.
Have a lovely holiday weekend!
Regina