What Constitutes Rudeness in Our Horse?
Mar 9th, 2010 by Carolyn
I do not address vices like biting, kicking or bucking if I can avoid it. Fighting with a horse does not help the bond and partnership and it can cause a horse to develop a bad attitude that then becomes a permanent part of his personality. It is better to focus on building a social bond and deal with the rudeness of the horse in a way that would build the bond and respect.
Many of you may be shocked to learn what horses actually see as polite behavior and it is very much misunderstood. Building polite behavior in a horse would enhance the bond, build team-working skills and enhance a horse’s natural instincts. When a horse is no longer rude, he sees you as family and you have a greater chance that he will want to follow your lead. The Waterhole Rituals will teach you when to lead, when to follow and when to pause. Observing the horse as he exhibits different behaviors from being willing to not being willing will guide you in the direction you need to take with him.
When people bond with their horses, often times the person does not realize that the horse is behaving rudely to them. Everything seems to be fine but a horse may not have unconditional respect for them. I develop unconditional respect using the Waterhole Rituals. The Rituals will also uncover the true nature of your horse and how he feels about you and you will learn more about horses and how to train them and develop their attitude to be willing, well adjusted and optimistic.
So what would constitutes rude behavior in a social interaction from the horse’s point of view that you might be overlooking?
Rudeness within the herd would be a horse that would not respect another horse’s personal space by leaving it when asked. Another rude behavior might look like not moving on when asked to move on. Or moving out of the way of a horse moving through and who needs the horse he is approaching to move out of the way. It could also look like a horse that enters another horse’s personal space without an invitation, or not paying attention to new personal boundary requirements of the horses around him. It is so simple really. I think we have similar etiquette in our own society. You will see this human etiquette in public places where people are on the move.
Horses spend a lot of time in social conduct in the spaces that they share with one another. It helps them to run at top speed as a herd in unity and helps them to make the right choices in what the next direction they need to go in and to follow the leader’s direction. Horses are amazing creatures in how they work together and this is the working bond we want to reach.
In order to be more clear in whether or not you have an unconditional bond and respect you need from your horse, ask yourself if you could ask the horse to leave you alone and move away from you even when the horse feels a bond and wants to be very close. Without this ability, it is hard to train and dance with your horse at liberty safely. Especially when he gets excited and wants to confront you, which they will if you do not have some order worked out with them.
Ask yourself could I stop my horse’s approach if I had carrots in my hand and would he leave me alone? Could I ask him to leave the area and not come back so that he would not return? Could I ask him to move away from me quickly? Could I enter the horse’s space and ask him to leave and he would? If he can do that, he has respect for you and he is being polite and likes you. Exercising how to move around each other in a polite way is the key to a horse’s heart.
If you answered ‘no’ to many of those questions above, then you have a long way to go with the relationship with your horse and it is why you are experiencing some of the problems you are.
When you’re approaching your horse and want politeness you will need to listen to what he wants and not always what you want. Though you could ask him and if he wants to do what you are asking him to do you are in good shape! An example is: If he did not want the halter put on, you would not try to make him wear it. If he comes up to you, it means he will be more likely to be in the mood for his halter to be put on. You could also be more direct with him and he wouldn’t perceive you as being rude as long as he chooses to be with you. But when he leaves you from your demands, to be polite you must not persist or pursue. When you and your horse work out these details on what is rude and what is polite it grows the trust and bond. The biting, kicking, and bucking stops if you are gracious in how you choose to listen to your horse and lead the dance going forward with him in a way that resonates with the horse while keeping the bond and respect.
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I hope that helps and I look forward to hearing your comments as to how these questions have played or play out for you.
Carolyn
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Carolyn,
As you had suggested I’m trying to call you, but perhaps it will take a few tries before our schedules sync up.
On the trail of the missing whinny (as I posted on another post, that my horse has ceased to whinny at me, whereas he used to do it heartily and every time returned from anywhere back into his sight), you write: Ask yourself could I stop my horse’s approach if I had carrots in my hand and would he leave me alone? Could I ask him to leave the area and not come back so that he would not return? Could I ask him to move away from me quickly? Could I enter the horse’s space and ask him to leave and he would? If he can do that, he has respect for you and he is being polite and likes you. Exercising how to move around each other in a polite way is the key to a horse’s heart.
So I wanted to find out. I took some carrots out in a pan and put them where he would have tons of room to run around without violating my prescribed boundaries. I made him stay about 20 feet back from the carrots with the reed. A couple of times he took a tiny step over my declared line, and when I stamped my foot he took those steps backward to adjust. I can not say he stopped facing my way or lost interest, but he rigidly held the distance I required of him.
I spoke nicely to him then, approached him, and we companion walked to the carrots. After a little bit I stepped away from his heart area, told him I was about to run him off (his eyes were on me), said “and..” the way I do when I cue him, and then said shoo and drove him off with the reed. He tore out ex post haste, about back to my previous 20 foot line. After maintaining that distance a few minutes, I went to get him and companion walk him back to the carrots, and he very nicely came along, ears forward. I made him stop eating a couple of times, and he was polite about it.
When I later fed him, he wanted to give my hand a kiss before eating. I think I’ve been lax about boundaries in some ways. I hope I’m going in the correct direction.
It seems I can answer yes to all your questions based on this experience. If I’m failing to observe something, please let me know.
Dear Renne,
One of my rules in working with a horse at liberty is to always listen to your horse’s need in the over all feeling of well being. This is the most important guide you have for making choices in what to work on.
In the DVD I say clearly do not work a horse that is not happy with their envirment with the Waterhole Rituals.
I also never want to be the cause of a horse becoming a sweaty mess.
It is youg job to bring well being to your horse. YOu are teaching your horse not to like you can you see that? If you win your horse over it was not a very friendly way to do it. you cared emotional trama to your horse.
Work only on the things that are working for you and your horse,stay way from the problems, as the bond grows they will desolve.
There will be a time that you can drive a horse way form food to develop the bond and the respect that a horse may get upset that would be perfectly allright but if the horse is unhappy in her enviroment because of it and wants to be somewere elese you must get the horse were she needs to be for her well being needs and to be her savior. These choices you have made will cause your mare not to trust your leadership.
In your horses eyes you are not a fun preson to be with bcause you are purposly causes the horse to have to do sometning against her will for no good reason.
YOu need to set up a coaching call will me or take one of my programs.
To repair your problem you need to never do that again and set with your horse for the next month more or less, her behavior will let you know when you have repaired the connection. You can go ahead with your regular programs but the only way you are going to make it up with her with my method is to grow your warness it how to be and how to create a optimistic attitude in your horse. Sitting with your horse for long periods will help to repair the past. Sitting with our horse you will gain knowlege naturally in how to be and you perception in how to behave with horses to creat trust and optimistic attitdue will come.
YOu job now is to work on helping your horses to be happy.
Dear Carolyn, I want to share an experiment with you and get any ideas you might have on it.
My two mares have been together their entire life, I have done little to separate them except when I am riding one or taking one off in the trailer. I decided to try to separate them during feeding, putting one in a separate pasture. They can see each other. I did this for three consecutive days. Days one and two, I would go into the “more bothered by separation” mare (Lena) try companion walking, driving from behind, and go trot. We did a great deal of driving from behind as her attention was on the neighbor horses and her fellow pasture mate. She was pretty mad, pinned ears, wringing tail. She normally is pretty honorary. Eventually, she would companion walk and we could walk out the gate at liberty go graze and go to her pasture mate. What really blew my mind was the third day, I had separated them, went to town and when I returned she heard the truck and started running and screaming and generally having a fit. When I went to the pasture she was a wet mess, I had planned to sit with her and read so I did. She totally ignored me, she was so upset ( mad, tantrum, frantic ?) all possibly, She would come up to me push my book then blow off, she could run into another area where she couldn’t see me. I moved my chair to a fence line where she likes to run up and down screaming. If and when she returned she would have to go around me. This was really hard for me, it was like a baby having a fit when you put them in their crib, she wanted out, and now. It took all I could do to sit there and let her come back around into my paddock, which she did, but when she tried to run the fence line she had to go around me. She did this for a while then would run into the next pasture. Boy, I was so tempted to get up and go get her, calm her or push her around, like smacking a hysterical person, but I did neither. I sat and waited.
Yes, she returned and after several runs up and around me down the fence line, drenched in sweat she came to me. Because I no longer could stand to see her like this, I reached up and stroked her and talked to her. She settled down, I got up and scratched her and talked to her, we companion walked around that pasture and then out to a pasture where the night before i had hid some hay stacks, we walked over to one then I asked her to go with me to the other one, she was hesitant but then followed. After munching for a while I left her and walked to the out gate, I could hear her galloping toward me, I turned and did the “stop”move. She halted and continued to walk with me, mirroring my request forward, backward out the gate we went to the other mare. When we were there I let her in the pasture with her sister, she rudely left, yet the other mare (Sarah) came out with me, as I knew she wanted some water. This upset Lena. Sarah walked back with me into the pasture with Lena and all was well with the world again.
What really shocked me was that I did not know that I did not have a relationship with Lena, the hysterical mare. I could force one, which I evidently had been doing, thus her bad attitude! Just like you said in your post, but that very bad attitude was what drove me to find another way with both mares. I could hardly stand those “bad”ears anymore. That is when I found your post. And here I am facing the truth square in the “ears”.
Renee
Yesterday, I experienced such a deep heartfelt place and being in the moment with Yowahtee, that I thought my heart would burst, and happy tears were forming.
When I arrived, he was napping in the pasture with another horse. So sweet, I haven’t seen him this relaxed in this group in a long time. I wandered out very quietly at a far distance around him to take some pictures, not to disturb him. I just enjoyed the peacefulness and then he looked over and saw me, got up and came to me. He waited for me to put his halter on. I didn’t attach the lead rope as sometimes the other horses can become pushy and it is very muddy, but he joined up in a walk with me shoulder to shoulder immediately. Even when I turned to say hi to an approaching horse, he turned with me. We exited the gate and he went on to find some nibbles in the aisle.
I groomed him some in the aisle but he was so muddy it must have been a little irritating so I stopped and just hung with him. When I started to go up to the barn, he started walking too, with me just a little behind, as if I was leading him from behind, I felt like I was because he was not stopping to nibble, just strolling with me. When he got to the square ahead of the barn, he went one way and I went the other. I sat near the barn just enjoying the sunshine and being with him. I quieted my mind, and allowed myself to be completely immersed in the moments.
I went and greeted him a few times when he would look up at me, then returned. He came over to me, nuzzled me and we headed into the barn. I washed off all the thick, crusted mud on his belly and legs, and he was completely relaxed. We walked into the arena. He enjoyed a roll and then we practiced hellos and he started companion walking with me. When he went to stand by the exit door, I would continue walking around and when he looked at me with two eyes I would approach him, and if he looked away, I would leave, until the time he kept his gaze on me the whole approach. Then I would say hello and say thank you.
He is generally the lowest on the pecking order, but when I took him back to the pasture and put him in, another horse immediately came to inspect him. He had a new sense of confidence and held his own, playing and running and leading another from behind. I found that priceless. I was in the aisle mesmerized with the play for about 10 minutes, just watching and when I went to leave, he saw me walking away and he looked at me, stopped playing, and walked across the pasture to me, relaxed and looking at me the entire time. It was very endearing. I said hello and was happy to find a small carrot piece for him. He contentedly smiled and put his head into some hay on the ground, and I thanked him again and took my leave.
Thank you for all you are teaching Carolyn, and to all of you who write your stories, it is starting to become a part of me and is taking my bond deeper and the connection I am feeling is amazing and we are just at the beginning.
Hello,
thank you very must for this post, it came very timely also for me and contains a lot of answers to my last comment I wrote to the previous post (demystifying the WHRs). As well as all the comments and stories of the other class members. I’m starting again with sitting with Clarence (the weather doesn’t allow much more) and doing some yoga exercises for myself. And I realized how much the horses communicate with us when we are not doing anything with them. On the outside it may seem they do just grazing, not caring about us. But Clarence’s ear was always directed towards me and she kept herself near me, but keeping a respectful distance. When after half anhour I moved towards the barn she followed me for a while than decided to graze another bit while I was distributing the hay to the other horses in the paddocks. She was free, her paddock open, so she could choose. Doing yoga exercises sharpens one’s perception, if there is connection or not, I found.
Horses really can teach us to respect the personal space of others and to defend our personal space. Often I notice where I live that people have forgotten where their personal space ends and the personal space of others begins. There is so much rude behaviour around us, and often I realize that I myself am involved, because not having been able on many occasions to set boundaries. And sometimes, I admit, being rude to others invading their space (in my family for ex.). Horses teach me to find the balanced way the more I stay with them and your guide, Carolyn is so precious, because you direct our perception to all the small details, an untrained eye misses. Thank you.
One question: I read about the bamboo, Kerrie used and your answer to it. In the course I attended http://www.Das-Pegasus-Projekt.com we used a very long rope to keep the horse at a respectful distance, circling the end of it towards the horse, without touching him of course. We used it also to make him move, and with very dominant horses, who would not move just at the rope-circling-stimulus, we threw the rope towards the ground behind his hindlegs, without touching obviously. What do you think about using a rope this way (obviously not as they use it in Join-up, making him running in circles)?
Always my best greetings and thanks to everybody.
Andrea
Carolyn, I should explain that I don’t need to touch Capricho to send him away. Use of a reed doesn’t involve touching him or eliciting fear, only proscribing distance. He does have a “gas pedal” minus use of the reed. He reads my eyes like a hawk, and I believe that is why he bumped into me – I took my gaze off him. I think I need to work facing him more, or at least maintaining better eye contact when in motion with him.
To everyone participating here, this is an amazing forum of experience, mastery, learning, loving and sharing… thank you. Beautiful, graceful stories.
Carolyn, I didn’t mean to alarm you, I ‘m so sorry I created a misunderstanding and I see your wisdom about using any hard object and the danger of it shooting back when kicked.
Oh mercy no, I would never use a hard object on a horse. I rarely touch him with anything but my hands.
I think you are thinking of some hard grade of bamboo. This is a thin piece of Japanese bamboo, just exactly like your reeds which flex and wiggle, you probably couldn’t fish with it. I could snap the reed in half with two fingers, it is just like stiff grass – breaks almost like a toothpick, and springy.
While Capricho certainly is not the easiest horse, he has relaxed a great deal in two days with the WHR. I have stopped giving him carrots and the mouthy stuff is pretty much history. I’m going to get a video to you quite soon. However I don’t know if you have a channel where I should download it?
Hi Carolyn,
My horse and I are exploring these very things now. As you say, about working out the details of what is rude and what is polite. That is what we are working out and now I am gaining a clearer idea of what constitutes rude behavior on my part and what might constitute rude behavior on his part, so then I know who needs to make a change.
I have been giving a lot of thought to how the leader allows his behavior to be shaped and how that applies to what I am doing with my horse on a day-to-day basis. I am starting to get more of an idea of what that means, I think. I am recording it all in a journal so that I can read back to see what worked and what didn’t work and stay in a more experimental and creative frame of mind.
Looking forward to word on the next class!
Thanks,
Holly
Carolyn – I think we must be in a communication breakdown. I’ll call Mark.
Dear Mary,
I have no idea of the benfits to her horse. YOu need to call me. Get my number from Mark. You may have it already. I feel you may not qualified for this course with this give situation. I would also need to speek to the owner of the horse. I do not know that you know how to stay safe.
Carolyn – I don’t mean to bug you! But you missed the question I asked.
I want to give Commander’s owner reasons why it will benefit her for me to work with him. What can I tell her? I don’t want her to resent the close bond that I will share with Commander.
I am very happy to be working with you again! Thanks!
Dear Mary,
Yes, you are in this is great looking forward to working with you again.
Carolyn – I know you are very busy and there are a lot of posts to read. But seeing as the WR will be starting soon can you answer this question. What can I tell the owner of Commander, the horse I will be using, are the benefits to her in letting me work with Commander?
I don’t want her to resent my developing a close bond with him.